1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,950 [Music] 2 00:00:11,870 --> 00:00:09,110 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 3 00:00:22,109 --> 00:00:11,880 from Australia for science and reason 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:22,119 [Music] 5 00:00:29,339 --> 00:00:24,650 yes it's the skeptics own podcast 6 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:29,349 episode number 552 for the 19th of May 7 00:00:36,069 --> 00:00:33,410 2019 happy birthday Margaret you know 8 00:00:38,020 --> 00:00:36,079 who you are coming up on this week's 9 00:00:41,140 --> 00:00:38,030 show we're going to be interviewing Mick 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:41,150 West Mick west from Mehta Bank Mick West 11 00:00:47,530 --> 00:00:44,930 the author where's here we are this book 12 00:00:50,139 --> 00:00:47,540 I have escaping the rabbit hole how to 13 00:00:53,950 --> 00:00:50,149 debunk conspiracy theories using facts 14 00:00:56,140 --> 00:00:53,960 logic and respect what an interesting 15 00:00:59,910 --> 00:00:56,150 book it is I particularly enjoyed the 16 00:01:03,310 --> 00:00:59,920 section on chemtrails those naughty 17 00:01:05,770 --> 00:01:03,320 chemicals that naughty evil governments 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:05,780 are disseminating throughout the world 19 00:01:11,530 --> 00:01:07,490 trying to change the weather 20 00:01:14,710 --> 00:01:11,540 via jet airliners mick west also has a 21 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:14,720 new podcast which you can listen to when 22 00:01:18,130 --> 00:01:16,340 you're not listening to the skeptics oh 23 00:01:20,410 --> 00:01:18,140 and find out all about that at the top 24 00:01:23,399 --> 00:01:20,420 of the show when I interview author Mick 25 00:01:27,219 --> 00:01:23,409 West and then following that a 26 00:01:29,169 --> 00:01:27,229 cautionary tale from many years ago from 27 00:01:31,870 --> 00:01:29,179 over thirty years ago in the early days 28 00:01:36,550 --> 00:01:31,880 of the Australian skeptics when members 29 00:01:40,209 --> 00:01:36,560 in Victoria decided to take on a psychic 30 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:40,219 surgeon to bust him to tumble him to 31 00:01:47,139 --> 00:01:43,969 rumble him to expose him by going 32 00:01:51,249 --> 00:01:47,149 undercover as it were with the full 33 00:01:54,449 --> 00:01:51,259 knowledge of the police force did they 34 00:01:57,489 --> 00:01:54,459 succeed what was the outcome an 35 00:02:00,249 --> 00:01:57,499 interesting and unexpected twist in this 36 00:02:02,139 --> 00:02:00,259 story coming up from the pages of the 37 00:02:04,389 --> 00:02:02,149 skeptic magazine the journal from 38 00:02:06,279 --> 00:02:04,399 Australian skeptics but now it's time 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:06,289 for me to run downstairs and have a nice 40 00:02:16,570 --> 00:02:13,450 simple clean salad mmm with wasabi sauce 41 00:02:19,839 --> 00:02:16,580 well what I do is I make a nice salad i 42 00:02:23,740 --> 00:02:19,849 buy and I sell it to be honest and I mix 43 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:23,750 myself up some special dressing which 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:27,190 consists of a tin of tuna yeah well and 45 00:02:32,770 --> 00:02:30,890 with a healthy dose of wasabi sauce 46 00:02:33,830 --> 00:02:32,780 because I like wasabi sauce mix it all 47 00:02:35,780 --> 00:02:33,840 together 48 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:35,790 munch that down while I do that I hope 49 00:03:01,020 --> 00:02:38,010 you enjoy the skeptic zone 50 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:01,030 [Music] 51 00:03:07,030 --> 00:03:04,250 and joining me now on the line all the 52 00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:07,040 way from Sacramento California it's the 53 00:03:12,790 --> 00:03:10,220 author Mick West hello Mick no Richard 54 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:12,800 glad to be here nice to have you back on 55 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:15,650 the show again I think we spoke all the 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:17,930 best part of a year ago when you are 57 00:03:22,390 --> 00:03:20,090 going to bring out the book which I have 58 00:03:24,190 --> 00:03:22,400 in my hand escaping the rabbit hole how 59 00:03:27,550 --> 00:03:24,200 to debunk conspiracy theories using 60 00:03:31,540 --> 00:03:27,560 facts logic and respect how is that book 61 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:31,550 being received very well by the people 62 00:03:36,730 --> 00:03:34,610 who are read it I think if you go by the 63 00:03:40,090 --> 00:03:36,740 Amazon reviews which there's only about 64 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:40,100 15 or so I think there's one person who 65 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:42,260 really hated it because he thinks I'm 66 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:45,530 some kind of Illuminati she'll write 67 00:03:50,260 --> 00:03:48,170 trying to try to brainwash people but 68 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:50,270 everybody else seems to like it quite a 69 00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:52,250 lot and you know if it even had good 70 00:03:57,430 --> 00:03:55,040 reactions from people who are conspiracy 71 00:03:59,380 --> 00:03:57,440 theorists themselves and they read the 72 00:04:00,970 --> 00:03:59,390 book and they you know they don't 73 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:00,980 obviously agree with everything in it 74 00:04:06,670 --> 00:04:04,610 because I'm debunking things but you 75 00:04:08,620 --> 00:04:06,680 know they like the general tone of it I 76 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:08,630 think and how long is that book being 77 00:04:14,590 --> 00:04:13,130 out now oh it came out in September so I 78 00:04:18,220 --> 00:04:14,600 guess that's about or seven or eight 79 00:04:19,900 --> 00:04:18,230 months or so right okay okay yes it's 80 00:04:22,570 --> 00:04:19,910 it's a great read folks if you want to 81 00:04:24,250 --> 00:04:22,580 get your hands on a copy of escaping the 82 00:04:28,570 --> 00:04:24,260 rabbit hole I'll certainly add a link in 83 00:04:30,250 --> 00:04:28,580 this week's show notes and you've 84 00:04:33,730 --> 00:04:30,260 recently sort of come to my attention 85 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:33,740 because I in my travels was watching 86 00:04:38,650 --> 00:04:36,650 some videos from conferences and one 87 00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:38,660 talk that you gave was particularly 88 00:04:42,100 --> 00:04:40,310 interesting and I'd like you to expand a 89 00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:42,110 but upon this a little bit for our 90 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:44,840 audience talking about 9/11 truthers 91 00:04:50,219 --> 00:04:47,810 that conspiracy in this situation and 92 00:04:52,180 --> 00:04:50,229 you bring up the fascinating topic of 93 00:04:56,290 --> 00:04:52,190 microspheres can you tell us all about 94 00:04:59,050 --> 00:04:56,300 that yeah iron microspheres this is 95 00:05:02,050 --> 00:04:59,060 something that the 9/11 truth community 96 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:02,060 has put forward as being conclusive 97 00:05:07,540 --> 00:05:04,250 evidence that there was controlled 98 00:05:08,570 --> 00:05:07,550 demolition on 9/11 and what iron 99 00:05:09,710 --> 00:05:08,580 microspheres are 100 00:05:13,060 --> 00:05:09,720 I think you know what they sound like 101 00:05:15,350 --> 00:05:13,070 they're microscopic iron spheres and 102 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:15,360 they are things that get left behind 103 00:05:20,180 --> 00:05:17,610 when iron gets really really hot gets 104 00:05:21,590 --> 00:05:20,190 molten basically because it forms into 105 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:21,600 these little Spears just cause of the 106 00:05:27,590 --> 00:05:24,930 surface tension and so if iron has been 107 00:05:30,790 --> 00:05:27,600 melted for example if you are cutting 108 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:30,800 some through some steel with a blowtorch 109 00:05:36,770 --> 00:05:34,110 it will make these iron microspheres but 110 00:05:39,830 --> 00:05:36,780 the 9/11 truth community is kind of 111 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:39,840 glommed onto this as being proof of what 112 00:05:44,660 --> 00:05:43,050 they referred to as nano thermite which 113 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:44,670 is a super special type of thermite 114 00:05:49,010 --> 00:05:47,010 which they say can cut through steel and 115 00:05:52,070 --> 00:05:49,020 they think that these spheres are 116 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:52,080 absolute proof that this has happened is 117 00:05:58,460 --> 00:05:55,110 nono thermite a thing is that does this 118 00:06:00,530 --> 00:05:58,470 exist it is a thing but you don't really 119 00:06:01,790 --> 00:06:00,540 hear about people actually using it 120 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:01,800 because it's kind of almost like a 121 00:06:08,180 --> 00:06:05,510 theoretical thing you hear about people 122 00:06:11,890 --> 00:06:08,190 doing computer modeling using nano 123 00:06:15,890 --> 00:06:11,900 thermite with hypotheticals hypothetical 124 00:06:17,780 --> 00:06:15,900 configurations of atoms but really it's 125 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:17,790 not a practical thing that people 126 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:19,590 actually use it's more of a theoretical 127 00:06:26,930 --> 00:06:23,250 thing so they've been using these iron 128 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:26,940 microspheres to their mind as conclusive 129 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:29,850 evidence that something untoward 130 00:06:34,190 --> 00:06:32,370 happened at the World Trade Center yeah 131 00:06:35,810 --> 00:06:34,200 and in fact there's another as a group 132 00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:35,820 of people called I think the lawyers 133 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:38,600 Committee for 9/11 truth who recently 134 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:42,210 sued the FBI and this is a group of 135 00:06:47,870 --> 00:06:45,930 proper lawyers and also Ed Asner is 136 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:47,880 involved for some reason I think he is 137 00:06:53,540 --> 00:06:51,690 the the financier of a lot of this stuff 138 00:06:54,710 --> 00:06:53,550 Edison is an American actor he's quite 139 00:06:57,500 --> 00:06:54,720 famous in America I'm not sure he's 140 00:07:01,910 --> 00:06:57,510 quite the famous in in Australia he was 141 00:07:04,010 --> 00:07:01,920 on Mary Tyler yes yes I recall yes yeah 142 00:07:07,850 --> 00:07:04,020 Mary Tyler Moore he was the grumpy old 143 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:07,860 guy anyway so they these lawyers have 144 00:07:14,030 --> 00:07:11,370 sued the FBI and in the lawsuits they 145 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:14,040 specifically say the presence of iron 146 00:07:20,350 --> 00:07:16,290 microspheres in the 911 World Trade 147 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:20,360 Center dust is can only be explained by 148 00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:21,510 now 149 00:07:26,420 --> 00:07:23,910 thermite so they're putting this in an 150 00:07:28,940 --> 00:07:26,430 actual lawsuit that they've filed in the 151 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:28,950 New York district courts against the FBI 152 00:07:33,620 --> 00:07:31,140 as being absolute proof and really it 153 00:07:36,380 --> 00:07:33,630 isn't and the reason I know it isn't is 154 00:07:38,350 --> 00:07:36,390 that I myself have made iron 155 00:07:41,630 --> 00:07:38,360 microspheres about 10 different ways 156 00:07:43,340 --> 00:07:41,640 yeah yeah it's it's it's it's an 157 00:07:46,460 --> 00:07:43,350 interesting thing you bring up on many 158 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:46,470 levels I mean we you know you can 159 00:07:51,380 --> 00:07:48,810 demonstrate how these things can be made 160 00:07:52,790 --> 00:07:51,390 in other ways but to get into the mind 161 00:07:56,060 --> 00:07:52,800 of the people who would go to such 162 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:56,070 extraordinary lengths as to put together 163 00:08:00,740 --> 00:07:58,050 a lawsuit mmm 164 00:08:03,290 --> 00:08:00,750 and these people you would think would 165 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:03,300 be normal respectable everyday people 166 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:07,290 yet they still have this mindset yeah 167 00:08:12,020 --> 00:08:09,930 yeah they are in fact just normal people 168 00:08:13,490 --> 00:08:12,030 I mean they're not normal everyday 169 00:08:15,130 --> 00:08:13,500 people because they are generally 170 00:08:17,180 --> 00:08:15,140 lawyers these people right absolutely 171 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:17,190 doing this so you know you think they 172 00:08:21,620 --> 00:08:19,410 would you know the lawyers they know 173 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:21,630 about the law they don't know very much 174 00:08:27,590 --> 00:08:23,490 about physics and chemistry and iron 175 00:08:30,020 --> 00:08:27,600 microspheres so they have been convinced 176 00:08:31,550 --> 00:08:30,030 that there is this big conspiracy going 177 00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:31,560 on and that the World Trade Center was 178 00:08:35,719 --> 00:08:33,270 brought down by controlled demolition 179 00:08:38,300 --> 00:08:35,729 and they get convinced just the same as 180 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:38,310 ordinary people done right it's just 181 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:42,330 regular Joe's get convinced by watching 182 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:44,940 videos essentially and listening to 183 00:08:50,540 --> 00:08:48,150 people who are just presenting one side 184 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:50,550 of the argument like you've got this big 185 00:08:55,010 --> 00:08:52,050 group architects and engineers for 9/11 186 00:08:58,370 --> 00:08:55,020 truth and they put out a lot of videos 187 00:09:00,530 --> 00:08:58,380 that make the case that 9/11 was a 188 00:09:02,990 --> 00:09:00,540 controlled demolition if all you do is 189 00:09:04,730 --> 00:09:03,000 is watch these videos you'll be 190 00:09:06,860 --> 00:09:04,740 convinced and that's what happens to 191 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:06,870 these people and then they think oh I'll 192 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:08,970 use my lawyer inabilities and try to do 193 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:10,530 something about it and try to make the 194 00:09:16,790 --> 00:09:13,380 world a better place we're talking about 195 00:09:19,550 --> 00:09:16,800 movies like loose change I think yeah 196 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:19,560 like loose changes as a classic example 197 00:09:24,260 --> 00:09:22,410 of a movie there are lots of people 198 00:09:27,470 --> 00:09:24,270 actually cite as being the first thing 199 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:27,480 they watched that got them into 9/11 200 00:09:34,010 --> 00:09:30,510 they talk about it as a red pill moment 201 00:09:36,350 --> 00:09:34,020 at the moment that they discovered that 202 00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:36,360 there was something else going on their 203 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:38,880 eyes were opened and red pill of course 204 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:41,970 is a reference to to the matrix him dude 205 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:44,460 when neo takes the red pill and in the 206 00:09:48,860 --> 00:09:46,530 true reality it's revealed to him and 207 00:09:52,670 --> 00:09:48,870 they feel the same way and you know in 208 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:52,680 the matrix neo is a messiah character 209 00:09:57,650 --> 00:09:54,810 essentially he's the guy who's going to 210 00:10:01,160 --> 00:09:57,660 save the world and some of these people 211 00:10:02,690 --> 00:10:01,170 a lot of the people I think feel that 212 00:10:04,940 --> 00:10:02,700 that's what they are doing either 213 00:10:06,860 --> 00:10:04,950 individually or as part of a group that 214 00:10:10,790 --> 00:10:06,870 they are trying to save the world from 215 00:10:12,710 --> 00:10:10,800 these evil conspiracists yeah they've 216 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:12,720 uncovered the truth their eyes have been 217 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:14,370 open they know the inside knowledge 218 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:16,830 they're fighting for what's that's 219 00:10:20,750 --> 00:10:19,590 what's right so it's wrong for some 220 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:20,760 skeptics to think that all these people 221 00:10:28,130 --> 00:10:23,490 are raving lunatics or nutters or have 222 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:28,140 bad intentions I guess we can say being 223 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:30,090 charitable about it a lot of them are 224 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:32,730 simply misled yeah absolutely and I 225 00:10:37,940 --> 00:10:35,910 think pretty much all the people who are 226 00:10:40,340 --> 00:10:37,950 into things like 9/11 truth except for 227 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:40,350 the very very small minority who have 228 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:42,030 some kind of you know extreme mental 229 00:10:47,510 --> 00:10:44,610 illness most so much as ordinary people 230 00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:47,520 with ordinary cognitive biases that you 231 00:10:51,650 --> 00:10:49,740 know you and I have to and it's just 232 00:10:53,510 --> 00:10:51,660 they have been exposed to material 233 00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:53,520 insert in such a way that it's kind of 234 00:10:58,700 --> 00:10:55,740 triggered these biases and got them 235 00:10:59,930 --> 00:10:58,710 stuck in this way of thinking but you 236 00:11:02,690 --> 00:10:59,940 know if you talk to people who used to 237 00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:02,700 be conspiracy theorists they'd come out 238 00:11:05,660 --> 00:11:04,500 just being like normal people and there 239 00:11:08,180 --> 00:11:05,670 were normal people going in 240 00:11:10,730 --> 00:11:08,190 it's just now they've realized that they 241 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:10,740 were were being misled and actually have 242 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:13,410 a kind of inverse red pill reaction 243 00:11:17,390 --> 00:11:15,510 where they come out of it not exactly 244 00:11:20,390 --> 00:11:17,400 taking the blue pill but taking almost 245 00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:20,400 like another red pill which bumps them 246 00:11:24,260 --> 00:11:21,990 up to the next level of the real real 247 00:11:26,180 --> 00:11:24,270 reality where they they they're they're 248 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:26,190 now aware of these conspiracy theories 249 00:11:29,690 --> 00:11:28,530 but they recognize them as being you 250 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:29,700 know essentially nonsense 251 00:11:35,150 --> 00:11:32,730 so yeah about sadder and wiser at the 252 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:35,160 end of it it must be quite a process and 253 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:38,130 just as an aside the matrix a large 254 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:39,690 parts of it was shot right here in 255 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:41,580 Sydney and sometimes I take great 256 00:11:46,629 --> 00:11:43,730 delight in taking guests downtown 257 00:11:48,849 --> 00:11:46,639 to the very fountain where all the or a 258 00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:48,859 lot of the action takes place the famous 259 00:11:52,479 --> 00:11:50,720 fountain in the matrix and if you're 260 00:11:54,819 --> 00:11:52,489 visiting Sydney that can be found in 261 00:11:57,729 --> 00:11:54,829 Martin place now let's move on to 262 00:11:59,679 --> 00:11:57,739 another topic which is an evergreen you 263 00:12:03,249 --> 00:11:59,689 know it's a it's an oldie but a goodie 264 00:12:04,780 --> 00:12:03,259 which is chemtrails and I know just now 265 00:12:08,439 --> 00:12:04,790 turning to your book you've got a whole 266 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:08,449 section in the book about chemtrails and 267 00:12:13,299 --> 00:12:11,049 again just for the benefit of everybody 268 00:12:17,109 --> 00:12:13,309 chemtrails are basically the idea that 269 00:12:20,139 --> 00:12:17,119 there are evil substances being ejected 270 00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:20,149 from jet airliners yeah that's right the 271 00:12:25,210 --> 00:12:22,160 idea is that the government is secretly 272 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:25,220 spraying and the long white trails that 273 00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:28,040 you see behind the planes are actually 274 00:12:32,619 --> 00:12:29,839 some kind of secret spraying program and 275 00:12:35,409 --> 00:12:32,629 the the most common theory is that the 276 00:12:38,769 --> 00:12:35,419 secret spraying is to alter the climate 277 00:12:40,419 --> 00:12:38,779 in some way to either protect from 278 00:12:43,659 --> 00:12:40,429 global warming or to cause global 279 00:12:45,129 --> 00:12:43,669 warming or just to yeah make the climate 280 00:12:46,329 --> 00:12:45,139 better for Monsanto's plants or 281 00:12:48,309 --> 00:12:46,339 something like that but that's that the 282 00:12:50,769 --> 00:12:48,319 common theory is that the white trails 283 00:12:52,569 --> 00:12:50,779 are some kind of climate altering 284 00:12:55,449 --> 00:12:52,579 substance when in reality they're just 285 00:12:57,129 --> 00:12:55,459 normal contrails yeah that's interesting 286 00:12:58,840 --> 00:12:57,139 because I was under the impression now 287 00:13:03,059 --> 00:12:58,850 for many years that the the major 288 00:13:06,809 --> 00:13:03,069 conspiracy was trying to alter the 289 00:13:09,970 --> 00:13:06,819 population by inserting microchips or 290 00:13:11,499 --> 00:13:09,980 chemicals that would alter your brain or 291 00:13:14,439 --> 00:13:11,509 thinking or something like that so 292 00:13:16,239 --> 00:13:14,449 you're saying that it's more people are 293 00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:16,249 saying that it's a justing the weather 294 00:13:21,129 --> 00:13:18,470 yeah I think you know you get that 295 00:13:22,659 --> 00:13:21,139 impression that it is some kind of 296 00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:22,669 poison or something crazy and 297 00:13:25,689 --> 00:13:23,839 mind-altering or something like that 298 00:13:28,239 --> 00:13:25,699 simply because that's the more 299 00:13:30,939 --> 00:13:28,249 entertaining theory so that's the one 300 00:13:33,549 --> 00:13:30,949 the media reports on and see right 301 00:13:35,859 --> 00:13:33,559 people like to talk about and the actual 302 00:13:38,529 --> 00:13:35,869 rather boring idea that they're trying 303 00:13:40,809 --> 00:13:38,539 to alter the weather is it's not so 304 00:13:42,669 --> 00:13:40,819 entertaining so yeah a lot of the times 305 00:13:45,970 --> 00:13:42,679 people get this misconception and then 306 00:13:48,069 --> 00:13:45,980 when debunkers the skeptics kind of wade 307 00:13:50,109 --> 00:13:48,079 into this topic they start off on the 308 00:13:52,179 --> 00:13:50,119 wrong foot and they say well it wouldn't 309 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:52,189 be very effective to spray poison from 310 00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:54,769 30,000 feet when really that's not the 311 00:13:57,870 --> 00:13:56,720 actual theory that people are putting 312 00:14:00,180 --> 00:13:57,880 forward so that debunk 313 00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:00,190 the wrong thing so yeah you need to 314 00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:02,260 start off debunking the right thing if 315 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:03,220 you're going to be a debugger of 316 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:06,250 chemtrails it's a very very good point 317 00:14:11,190 --> 00:14:08,170 you make because there you know I have 318 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:11,200 therefore somewhat being in error I'm 319 00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:13,330 thinking that was the major thinking 320 00:14:18,780 --> 00:14:15,430 behind the chemtrail conspiracies which 321 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:18,790 was population control and when you 322 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:21,310 think about it for a while I thought 323 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:23,890 that we could control the weather to any 324 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:26,650 great extent is well I guess it's still 325 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:28,090 in the realms of Star Trek science 326 00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:31,450 fiction but I guess in in in an odd sort 327 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:32,950 of way it makes more sense that people 328 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:36,010 would latch onto that yeah well it's not 329 00:14:39,650 --> 00:14:37,690 really changing the weather as such it's 330 00:14:42,510 --> 00:14:39,660 actually changing the climate which is 331 00:14:44,430 --> 00:14:42,520 the kind of the average of the weather 332 00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:44,440 the long-term weather so you know the 333 00:14:48,450 --> 00:14:46,780 same way that carbon dioxide is changing 334 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:48,460 the climate they're suggesting that 335 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:50,890 they're essentially simulating a large 336 00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:53,680 volcano and injecting a bunch of stuff 337 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:55,390 in the into the stratosphere and this 338 00:15:00,180 --> 00:14:57,250 this is a you know so science of 339 00:15:02,610 --> 00:15:00,190 geoengineering is something that people 340 00:15:03,690 --> 00:15:02,620 actually real scientists do look at and 341 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:03,700 you know the thing that might actually 342 00:15:07,860 --> 00:15:05,800 be done in the future if things get bad 343 00:15:10,590 --> 00:15:07,870 enough and the scientists right now 344 00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:10,600 doing experiments I think a bunch of 345 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:13,120 scientists at Harvard they're about to 346 00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:14,770 do an experiment releasing like a few 347 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:16,360 kilograms of stuff into the upper 348 00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:18,370 atmosphere to see what it's like they 349 00:15:22,740 --> 00:15:20,230 you know really that's that kind of a 350 00:15:25,890 --> 00:15:22,750 good debunking thing really because we 351 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:25,900 are in the very very early stages of the 352 00:15:30,450 --> 00:15:28,990 science of geoengineering and yet this 353 00:15:32,430 --> 00:15:30,460 theory says it's been done for the last 354 00:15:34,770 --> 00:15:32,440 you know 20 years 355 00:15:36,420 --> 00:15:34,780 wait a minute yeah if no one actually 356 00:15:38,190 --> 00:15:36,430 knew how to do it and we're just 357 00:15:39,390 --> 00:15:38,200 figuring it out now it really doesn't 358 00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:39,400 make any sense that they would have 359 00:15:45,150 --> 00:15:42,070 started it 20 years ago absolutely 360 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:45,160 now you discuss these topics and many 361 00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:48,910 more on a relatively new undertaking you 362 00:15:53,070 --> 00:15:50,950 have your own podcast please tell us 363 00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:53,080 about that yeah it's very new is any one 364 00:15:55,950 --> 00:15:53,680 week old 365 00:15:58,140 --> 00:15:55,960 it's called tales from the rabbit hole 366 00:15:59,280 --> 00:15:58,150 and it kind of grew out of the book 367 00:16:01,200 --> 00:15:59,290 you know if the books escaping the 368 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:01,210 rabbit hole and kind of the backbone of 369 00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:02,770 the book is all these interviews I did 370 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:05,590 with people who are conspiracy theorists 371 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:07,210 so it used to be conspiracy theorists 372 00:16:11,129 --> 00:16:10,570 and so I you know I thought that's one 373 00:16:13,139 --> 00:16:11,139 of the more interesting 374 00:16:14,489 --> 00:16:13,149 in parts of the book and it's actually 375 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:14,499 reasonably straightforward to do you 376 00:16:18,239 --> 00:16:15,910 just you know find someone you interview 377 00:16:21,239 --> 00:16:18,249 them and have an interesting chat so I 378 00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:21,249 started a podcast and what I wanted to 379 00:16:25,859 --> 00:16:24,220 do really is to try to increase the 380 00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:25,869 amount of Understanding between the 381 00:16:30,509 --> 00:16:28,600 different cultures in conspiracy 382 00:16:32,669 --> 00:16:30,519 theories there's the skeptics on the one 383 00:16:36,299 --> 00:16:32,679 hand yeah skeptics and debunkers and 384 00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:36,309 then there are the believers and then 385 00:16:39,929 --> 00:16:37,689 there's a form of believers and there's 386 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:39,939 also people who whose family members 387 00:16:43,439 --> 00:16:41,649 whose loved ones are conspiracy 388 00:16:44,729 --> 00:16:43,449 theorists right so there's all these 389 00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:44,739 different people whose lives have been 390 00:16:49,470 --> 00:16:46,959 affected one way or another and there's 391 00:16:50,879 --> 00:16:49,480 some very interesting stories coming out 392 00:16:53,489 --> 00:16:50,889 of it 393 00:16:57,030 --> 00:16:53,499 I've done three episodes so far and I've 394 00:16:58,619 --> 00:16:57,040 got another one in the can and yeah some 395 00:17:01,409 --> 00:16:58,629 interesting stuffs come out of it one of 396 00:17:04,579 --> 00:17:01,419 the things that I found is that people 397 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:04,589 talk a lot about kind of peer pressure 398 00:17:10,439 --> 00:17:07,329 by the social group that they get into 399 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:10,449 with conspiracy theorists becomes kind 400 00:17:16,019 --> 00:17:12,490 of a very important part of their life 401 00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:16,029 and they don't like to give it up and so 402 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:17,500 they're kind of pressured into believing 403 00:17:21,629 --> 00:17:19,089 these things even though they kind of 404 00:17:23,639 --> 00:17:21,639 skeptical about it and then if they push 405 00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:23,649 back they you know people get angry at 406 00:17:29,039 --> 00:17:26,470 them and then they they either back off 407 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:29,049 or the end up leaving the group so this 408 00:17:32,340 --> 00:17:30,970 is very interesting group dynamic which 409 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:32,350 I think people don't think about a lot 410 00:17:36,779 --> 00:17:34,210 when they're thinking about conspiracy 411 00:17:40,169 --> 00:17:36,789 theories I think this is common across 412 00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:40,179 many walks of life this the idea that 413 00:17:43,620 --> 00:17:41,830 you belong to a group of similar minded 414 00:17:46,940 --> 00:17:43,630 people when you push back against that 415 00:17:49,470 --> 00:17:46,950 you're going to get you're going to get 416 00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,480 some trouble from other members in the 417 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:51,039 group and I think that happens across 418 00:17:57,659 --> 00:17:55,570 society yeah I think so and some of the 419 00:17:59,430 --> 00:17:57,669 stuff I was you're talking about with 420 00:18:01,139 --> 00:17:59,440 one of the guys Stephen my last 421 00:18:03,419 --> 00:18:01,149 interviewee he used to be very 422 00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:03,429 interested in crop circles which isn't 423 00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:05,200 really a conspiracy theory is kind of 424 00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:08,559 this kind of supernatural type thing but 425 00:18:13,860 --> 00:18:11,380 he got the same kind of pushback from 426 00:18:16,289 --> 00:18:13,870 other people when they found out that he 427 00:18:17,779 --> 00:18:16,299 had been talking to the people who had 428 00:18:20,639 --> 00:18:17,789 actually made crop circles 429 00:18:22,019 --> 00:18:20,649 there's a group of people whose yes sit 430 00:18:24,299 --> 00:18:22,029 around in the pubs in Britain and then 431 00:18:24,989 --> 00:18:24,309 go out at night and actually make crop 432 00:18:28,229 --> 00:18:24,999 circles and 433 00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:28,239 he chatted to a few of them but because 434 00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:29,769 the the group thought that this was 435 00:18:34,349 --> 00:18:31,809 discrediting the entire movement they 436 00:18:36,059 --> 00:18:34,359 they ostracized him after he they found 437 00:18:39,329 --> 00:18:36,069 out they talk to these people so this is 438 00:18:43,169 --> 00:18:39,339 very very very strict kind of one-sided 439 00:18:46,589 --> 00:18:43,179 insular nature too to a lot of beliefs 440 00:18:48,209 --> 00:18:46,599 like this yes and again we can see this 441 00:18:51,299 --> 00:18:48,219 across many walks of life I'm afraid 442 00:18:54,149 --> 00:18:51,309 this is somewhat entrenched part of 443 00:18:56,399 --> 00:18:54,159 human behavior anyway folks you can find 444 00:18:58,109 --> 00:18:56,409 out all about that and listen to lots of 445 00:19:00,119 --> 00:18:58,119 very interesting interviews there three 446 00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:00,129 episodes up so far as we record all of 447 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:01,329 them very interesting I've been 448 00:19:05,219 --> 00:19:03,609 listening to them today in fact I just 449 00:19:07,109 --> 00:19:05,229 been listening to them today because 450 00:19:10,139 --> 00:19:07,119 I've only recently discovered you have a 451 00:19:13,109 --> 00:19:10,149 podcast I will link to all those in the 452 00:19:16,409 --> 00:19:13,119 show notes and I can only say good luck 453 00:19:18,149 --> 00:19:16,419 to you or I be producing a podcast is a 454 00:19:20,069 --> 00:19:18,159 lot of fun a lot of stress and a lot of 455 00:19:24,269 --> 00:19:20,079 fun I think he'll enjoy it ultimately 456 00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:24,279 and people can see you in fact in a only 457 00:19:30,029 --> 00:19:26,799 a couple of weeks time at in in San 458 00:19:33,239 --> 00:19:30,039 Francisco yeah that's about three weeks 459 00:19:34,889 --> 00:19:33,249 time I think in in San Francisco I'm 460 00:19:37,589 --> 00:19:34,899 going to be appearing at this sceptical 461 00:19:42,629 --> 00:19:37,599 conference and I'm going to be talking 462 00:19:44,479 --> 00:19:42,639 about conspiracy theorists and science 463 00:19:47,219 --> 00:19:44,489 communication how do you communicate 464 00:19:50,699 --> 00:19:47,229 science to believers in conspiracy 465 00:19:52,769 --> 00:19:50,709 theories it's very tricky topic so folks 466 00:19:55,409 --> 00:19:52,779 if you're in the Bay Area you don't need 467 00:19:57,169 --> 00:19:55,419 anymore excuses now get your tickets and 468 00:20:00,449 --> 00:19:57,179 we'll be linking this week's show notes 469 00:20:02,309 --> 00:20:00,459 but for now mick west in sacramento 470 00:20:05,230 --> 00:20:02,319 california thank you very much 471 00:20:15,670 --> 00:20:12,540 [Music] 472 00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:15,680 i'm mick west in my podcast tells from 473 00:20:18,250 --> 00:20:16,880 the rabbit-hole i have extended 474 00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:18,260 conversations with people who've been 475 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:20,630 involved in conspiracy culture i do this 476 00:20:23,170 --> 00:20:21,650 for a couple of reasons 477 00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:23,180 firstly because it's really interesting 478 00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:24,710 these people have great stories about 479 00:20:28,180 --> 00:20:26,390 how they fell down the conspiracy theory 480 00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:28,190 rabbit hole or they did down there and 481 00:20:31,150 --> 00:20:29,360 what it was that helped them out 482 00:20:32,830 --> 00:20:31,160 sometimes i also talked to people who 483 00:20:34,330 --> 00:20:32,840 investigate conspiracy theories and they 484 00:20:35,140 --> 00:20:34,340 have equally fascinating stories from 485 00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:35,150 the other side 486 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:37,190 secondly i want to understand how best 487 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:38,720 to prevent the spread of conspiracy 488 00:20:41,770 --> 00:20:40,250 there is a misinformation which is an 489 00:20:44,260 --> 00:20:41,780 increasing problem in a time when 490 00:20:45,490 --> 00:20:44,270 alternative media is exploding the best 491 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:45,500 way to do this is to communicate 492 00:20:50,020 --> 00:20:47,810 effectively with the people involved and 493 00:20:53,170 --> 00:20:50,030 the best way to do that with a nice long 494 00:20:56,210 --> 00:20:53,180 chat check it out tales from the rabbit 495 00:21:08,980 --> 00:20:56,220 hole TFT Rh calm 496 00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:08,990 [Music] 497 00:21:16,039 --> 00:21:11,940 this week we continue with our series of 498 00:21:18,259 --> 00:21:16,049 articles items reports interviews from 499 00:21:20,389 --> 00:21:18,269 the skeptic magazine the journal from 500 00:21:24,289 --> 00:21:20,399 Australian skeptics this week we're 501 00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:24,299 going to go back many years to 1985 to 502 00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:28,529 volume number 5 issue number one and an 503 00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:31,260 interesting story revolving sceptics 504 00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:35,190 psychic surgery and a court case it 505 00:21:39,769 --> 00:21:36,990 could be said this is a cautionary tale 506 00:21:48,669 --> 00:21:39,779 when things don't turn out the way you 507 00:21:54,860 --> 00:21:52,009 mr. ramen Lopez legal counsel for 508 00:21:57,590 --> 00:21:54,870 Filipino psychic surgeon large kacheng 509 00:22:00,259 --> 00:21:57,600 and spiritualist Margaret Kingsland 510 00:22:03,230 --> 00:22:00,269 stated that psychic surgery my 511 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:03,240 definition involves a fraud the 512 00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:05,010 statement came in a recent Victorian 513 00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:07,380 court case in which charges against 514 00:22:13,279 --> 00:22:10,169 catching and Kingsland of obtaining 515 00:22:16,009 --> 00:22:13,289 money by deception by pretending to 516 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:16,019 perform psychic surgery were dismissed a 517 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:19,049 charge against husband Colin Kingsland 518 00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:21,690 of aiding and abetting was also 519 00:22:27,710 --> 00:22:25,200 dismissed to committee members of the 520 00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:27,720 Australian skeptics Janet the Silva and 521 00:22:37,879 --> 00:22:31,919 Joe Rubinstein volunteered for psychic 522 00:22:40,669 --> 00:22:37,889 surgery by catching in July 1984 both 523 00:22:42,860 --> 00:22:40,679 believed that psychic surgery is fake 524 00:22:46,159 --> 00:22:42,870 and that it is not possible to 525 00:22:49,220 --> 00:22:46,169 physically open up bodies with the bare 526 00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:49,230 hands extract allegedly diseased tissue 527 00:22:55,399 --> 00:22:51,630 then closed the body without surgical 528 00:22:58,129 --> 00:22:55,409 procedures or anesthesia mr. Lopez said 529 00:23:01,220 --> 00:22:58,139 the Silva and Rubenstein had not been 530 00:23:04,129 --> 00:23:01,230 deceived because they had expected to 531 00:23:07,009 --> 00:23:04,139 receive psychic surgery quote which by 532 00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:07,019 definition involves a fraud end quote 533 00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:10,110 lopez said they received what they asked 534 00:23:16,190 --> 00:23:13,640 for background to the 535 00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,200 since its inception the Australian 536 00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:18,960 skeptics have campaigned extensively on 537 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:22,020 the issue of psychic surgery this is 538 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:24,450 because the claims of psychic surgery do 539 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:26,910 not stand up to scientific investigation 540 00:23:31,340 --> 00:23:29,010 the techniques of psychic surgery 541 00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:31,350 involves sleight of hand and fakery and 542 00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:34,080 can be demonstrated by magicians more 543 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:35,940 importantly the Australian skeptics see 544 00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:38,730 psychic surgery as an issue of public 545 00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:40,830 interest because people who have 546 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:42,840 accepted the diagnosis of a psychic 547 00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:45,450 surgeon may well be accepting the wrong 548 00:23:50,780 --> 00:23:48,240 diagnosis of someone with no medical 549 00:23:53,270 --> 00:23:50,790 training at all if they undergo psychic 550 00:23:55,330 --> 00:23:53,280 surgery they may believe they have been 551 00:23:57,860 --> 00:23:55,340 cured and thus neglect proper 552 00:23:59,840 --> 00:23:57,870 life-saving medical treatment the 553 00:24:02,450 --> 00:23:59,850 medical risks inherent in psychic 554 00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:02,460 surgery were well documented in the 555 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:04,980 American trade commission case travelled 556 00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:08,010 King @al which ordered for American 557 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:10,260 travel agencies to cease making false 558 00:24:17,870 --> 00:24:13,970 claims about psychic surgery 559 00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:17,880 the skeptics campaign when the chief 560 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:19,590 investigator for the committee for 561 00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:21,810 scientific investigations of claims of 562 00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:24,630 the paranormal magician James Randi made 563 00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:27,230 his first visit to Australia in 1980 he 564 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:30,000 demonstrated psychic surgery at public 565 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:31,860 meetings and on television 566 00:24:36,860 --> 00:24:34,410 the Australian skeptics were formed at 567 00:24:39,050 --> 00:24:36,870 the end of this visit since then 568 00:24:41,660 --> 00:24:39,060 Australian skeptics magicians danny 569 00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:41,670 varney and mike wilton have given public 570 00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:43,580 demonstrations of psychic surgery 571 00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:46,320 articles exposing psychic surgery have 572 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:47,760 appeared in the skeptic 573 00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:50,250 The Bulletin Australian Penthouse and 574 00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:53,640 other magazines the Australian Medical 575 00:24:59,240 --> 00:24:55,830 Association joined with the w a 576 00:25:01,970 --> 00:24:59,250 secretary stating it was merely quote 577 00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:01,980 sleight of hand and quote and a lot of 578 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:05,070 rubbish in 1984 the Australian skeptics 579 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:07,170 invited the chair of the Bay Area San 580 00:25:11,390 --> 00:25:09,450 Francisco skeptics Bob Steiner to 581 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:11,400 Australia when he made his final 582 00:25:15,860 --> 00:25:13,260 appearance on Australian television in 583 00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:15,870 May film clips of psychic surgery were 584 00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:18,390 shown with Bob explaining the fakery 585 00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:21,630 this massive television coverage created 586 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:24,030 considerable doubt among people who had 587 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:26,010 formerly believed that psychic surgery 588 00:25:29,299 --> 00:25:26,370 did 589 00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:29,309 not involve deception shortly after Bob 590 00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:32,340 left Australia a spiritualist informed a 591 00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,200 skeptics committee member that a 592 00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:36,480 visiting Filipino psychic surgeon 593 00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:40,070 Lawrence King was operating in Doncaster 594 00:25:46,940 --> 00:25:44,460 Victoria the National Committee of 595 00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:46,950 Australian skeptics decided to send in 596 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:50,880 two volunteers Janet the silver and Joe 597 00:25:58,580 --> 00:25:54,330 Rubinstein Janet was accompanied by her 598 00:26:00,740 --> 00:25:58,590 quote father in quote and Jo who posed 599 00:26:04,669 --> 00:26:00,750 as an immigrant who barely spoke English 600 00:26:05,780 --> 00:26:04,679 by a quote friend main quote actually a 601 00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:05,790 professional magician 602 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:08,910 the police were informed and both the 603 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:11,670 parties were fitted with sophisticated 604 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:14,130 sound recording equipment the volunteers 605 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:16,110 were examined by the assistant police 606 00:26:23,419 --> 00:26:19,250 surgeon before and after their quote 607 00:26:25,580 --> 00:26:23,429 operation unquote after the operations 608 00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:25,590 the police raided the premises and 609 00:26:31,549 --> 00:26:27,480 arrested the Kingsland 610 00:26:33,980 --> 00:26:31,559 and kacheng the hearing in court 611 00:26:36,049 --> 00:26:33,990 Janet stated that she told the psychic 612 00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:36,059 surgeon that she had a lump in her 613 00:26:41,150 --> 00:26:38,760 abdomen the psychic surgeon chanted a 614 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:41,160 prayer and then proceeded to massage the 615 00:26:45,890 --> 00:26:43,770 abdomen mrs. Kingsland held her hand on 616 00:26:48,290 --> 00:26:45,900 Janet's head making any movement 617 00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:48,300 impossible and preventing her from 618 00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:51,870 observing the operation Janet told the 619 00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:53,910 court she heard a ripping sound and then 620 00:27:01,250 --> 00:26:57,600 a pop this was followed by liquid oozing 621 00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:01,260 across her abdomen and Kijang said quote 622 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:04,190 I have cut the roots when quote an 623 00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:06,690 object was whisked past 624 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:09,510 Janet's head and there was a swishing 625 00:27:14,660 --> 00:27:12,330 sound in a basin at this point mrs. 626 00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:14,670 Kingsland repeated quote he's cut the 627 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:17,340 roots in quote the two defendants then 628 00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:19,890 reassured the patient that with further 629 00:27:24,770 --> 00:27:22,740 treatment the lump would disappear Jo 630 00:27:27,710 --> 00:27:24,780 Rubenstein's visit to the psychic 631 00:27:30,860 --> 00:27:27,720 surgery was similarly described in court 632 00:27:32,390 --> 00:27:30,870 but Jo's altercation with the defense 633 00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:32,400 counsel was more heated 634 00:27:38,090 --> 00:27:35,580 in fact Jo was awarded by mr. Lopez in 635 00:27:39,620 --> 00:27:38,100 his final submission for the defense the 636 00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:39,630 title of quote 637 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:42,030 prints of the skeptics end quote for his 638 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:44,250 spirited presentation in the witness 639 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:44,730 stand 640 00:27:50,210 --> 00:27:47,250 the first dispute arose prior to the 641 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:50,220 description of his operation when Joe 642 00:27:55,970 --> 00:27:52,530 was asked by mr. Lopez whether he 643 00:27:57,860 --> 00:27:55,980 believed in God mr. Lopez had noted that 644 00:28:00,920 --> 00:27:57,870 Joe made an affirmation instead of 645 00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:00,930 taking the oath Joe stoutly objected to 646 00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:02,910 what he considered to be an invasion of 647 00:28:07,610 --> 00:28:05,520 his privacy but the magistrate ruled he 648 00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:07,620 had to answer because the defendant 649 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:10,880 kacheng had recited a religious prayer 650 00:28:16,790 --> 00:28:14,250 after the discussion of the lump and the 651 00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:16,800 treatment massage followed by popping 652 00:28:22,130 --> 00:28:19,200 sound and flowing liquid Joe gave 653 00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:22,140 evidence that a piece of meat was held 654 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:24,240 in front of his eyes by the psychic 655 00:28:30,050 --> 00:28:26,910 surgeon Joe stated that it looked most 656 00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:30,060 unpleasant and was brownish in color 657 00:28:36,110 --> 00:28:33,480 he told council that no knife or scalpel 658 00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:36,120 was produced during this time Joe told 659 00:28:42,050 --> 00:28:39,150 the court that the tissue or meat was 660 00:28:44,810 --> 00:28:42,060 certainly not his flesh as he would have 661 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:44,820 to have been dead for several days in 662 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:46,850 order to produce tissue of that hue 663 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:50,490 defense counsel Lopez asked Joe if he 664 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:53,370 had ever seen human tissue and Joe 665 00:28:59,630 --> 00:28:56,730 replied quote of course during the war I 666 00:29:02,390 --> 00:28:59,640 saw many people blown to pieces or shot 667 00:29:05,870 --> 00:29:02,400 in quote no further questions by the 668 00:29:08,150 --> 00:29:05,880 defense on this subject Joe then related 669 00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:08,160 how the flesh was thrown away and a 670 00:29:12,550 --> 00:29:10,710 little more massaging followed during 671 00:29:16,130 --> 00:29:12,560 the period he was on the operating 672 00:29:19,070 --> 00:29:16,140 trestle table Joe said mrs. Kingsland 673 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:19,080 acted as a nurse after resuming his 674 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:21,330 clothes shirts had been removed prior to 675 00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:24,570 the operation Joe was instructed by mrs. 676 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:27,150 Kingsland not to drink coffee or alcohol 677 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:29,970 and was given a glass of milky liquid to 678 00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:32,490 drink it was suggested that another 679 00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:35,670 appointment be made immediately after 680 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:38,940 this Joe's friend skeptic magician Mike 681 00:29:45,260 --> 00:29:42,330 Wilton was asked for $30 which he 682 00:29:47,390 --> 00:29:45,270 tendered before they left the tapes of 683 00:29:49,490 --> 00:29:47,400 both encounters were handed after the 684 00:29:51,950 --> 00:29:49,500 operations to the police who 685 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:51,960 subsequently raided the Kingsland home 686 00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:53,580 and arrested Kerching 687 00:30:00,890 --> 00:29:58,320 and the Kingsland the decision the 688 00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:00,900 admission in the case by the defendants 689 00:30:06,380 --> 00:30:03,440 through their counsel now makes it 690 00:30:09,140 --> 00:30:06,390 indisputable and crystal clear that the 691 00:30:12,260 --> 00:30:09,150 spiritualist promoters and the filipino 692 00:30:15,650 --> 00:30:12,270 psychic surgeon all know that psychic 693 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:15,660 surgery is fakery and involves a fraud 694 00:30:21,050 --> 00:30:18,810 the court held that because de Silva and 695 00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:21,060 Rubenstein knew that psychic surgery 696 00:30:26,810 --> 00:30:24,000 involved a fraud and had expected to 697 00:30:30,380 --> 00:30:26,820 receive fraudulent treatment there was 698 00:30:33,140 --> 00:30:30,390 no criminal deception it would now 699 00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:33,150 appear that all promoters and psychic 700 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:35,430 surgeons in Australia have to ensure 701 00:30:40,790 --> 00:30:37,290 that each and every one of their 702 00:30:43,910 --> 00:30:40,800 patients are aware that psychic surgery 703 00:30:46,370 --> 00:30:43,920 by definition involves a fraud this 704 00:30:50,150 --> 00:30:46,380 should be made clear before accepting 705 00:30:53,690 --> 00:30:50,160 any monies by fee or donation providing 706 00:30:56,750 --> 00:30:53,700 the paying patient knows he or she is 707 00:30:59,870 --> 00:30:56,760 being deceived and the exact nature of 708 00:31:02,540 --> 00:30:59,880 the deception the criminal offence of 709 00:31:14,020 --> 00:31:02,550 obtaining a financial advantage by 710 00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:17,360 now some years ago as it happens when I 711 00:31:24,530 --> 00:31:20,520 was researching other stories in the 712 00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:24,540 history of Australian skeptics I came 713 00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:28,950 across some newspaper items published at 714 00:31:34,970 --> 00:31:32,520 the time to do with this story and so I 715 00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:34,980 quote now from the aged newspaper 716 00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:39,860 published on the 6th of November 1984 717 00:31:47,950 --> 00:31:43,230 psychic surgery patients were skeptics 718 00:31:50,810 --> 00:31:47,960 SM told a story by olga Fernley a 719 00:31:53,180 --> 00:31:50,820 Filipino man and a dong cast a couple 720 00:31:55,730 --> 00:31:53,190 appeared in the Box Hill magistrate's 721 00:31:57,260 --> 00:31:55,740 court yesterday on charges relating to 722 00:32:00,770 --> 00:31:57,270 obtaining money by deception 723 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:00,780 after alleged psychic surgery on two 724 00:32:03,070 --> 00:32:02,490 members of the Australian skeptic 725 00:32:06,170 --> 00:32:03,080 Society 726 00:32:08,570 --> 00:32:06,180 Joseph Rubinstein of Glen Waverley an 727 00:32:10,940 --> 00:32:08,580 engineer and treasurer of the Society 728 00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:10,950 said he went to the home of Margaret and 729 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:13,740 Colin Kingsland of Palo Crescent 730 00:32:19,070 --> 00:32:16,010 Doncaster on the 17th of July 731 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:19,080 complaining of stomach pains he told the 732 00:32:24,650 --> 00:32:21,930 court that he had lied about the pain he 733 00:32:26,510 --> 00:32:24,660 had none and that he had been examined 734 00:32:28,970 --> 00:32:26,520 by a medical practitioner at the 735 00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:28,980 Doncaster police station he said mrs. 736 00:32:35,290 --> 00:32:31,740 Kingsland told him to remove his jacket 737 00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:35,300 shirt and singlet and lie on a bench a 738 00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:38,700 Filipino whom he identified in court as 739 00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:42,240 Lawrence kacheng recited a prayer and 740 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:45,120 then began to massage his stomach mr. 741 00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:49,170 Rubinstein said quote I heard a pop like 742 00:32:53,330 --> 00:32:50,880 a little balloon bursting and 743 00:32:55,910 --> 00:32:53,340 immediately liquid began to reign over 744 00:32:59,060 --> 00:32:55,920 my abdomen this liquid was wiped off 745 00:33:01,970 --> 00:32:59,070 with a towel by mrs Kingsland end quote 746 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:01,980 mr. rubenstein said the procedure was 747 00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:05,370 repeated there was another pop and then 748 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:08,760 mr. kacheng quote raised his hands and 749 00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:10,770 showed me a piece of meat it was not a 750 00:33:13,670 --> 00:33:12,750 fresh piece of meat it looked rather 751 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:13,680 unpleasant 752 00:33:18,170 --> 00:33:16,650 it was brownish instead of red and in my 753 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:18,180 opinion it looked like a piece of 754 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:20,610 chicken liver and quote mr. Rubenstein 755 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:23,610 said mr. Rubenstein said he had been in 756 00:33:27,630 --> 00:33:25,240 a forced lay 757 00:33:30,510 --> 00:33:27,640 a camp in Germany and had seen people 758 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:30,520 blown up quote I know what human tissue 759 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:32,710 looks like it certainly was not flesh 760 00:33:39,060 --> 00:33:35,410 and it certainly was not my tissue in 761 00:33:41,070 --> 00:33:39,070 quote mister catching 44 residing at 762 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:41,080 Palo Crescent Doncaster while in 763 00:33:47,490 --> 00:33:43,930 Australia and missus Kingsland 48 faced 764 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:47,500 charges of dishonestly obtaining $30.00 765 00:33:53,370 --> 00:33:50,170 by pretending they performed psychic 766 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:53,380 surgery on mr. Rubenstein and $30.00 by 767 00:33:57,300 --> 00:33:55,450 pretending they performed psychic 768 00:34:00,030 --> 00:33:57,310 surgery on another member of the 769 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:00,040 Australian skeptics Miss Janet da Silva 770 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:03,490 mr. Kingsland 49 is charged with aiding 771 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:06,370 and abetting in the alleged deception 772 00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:09,370 the case being heard by mr. Lionel 773 00:34:15,450 --> 00:34:12,760 Wilton Smith SM was adjourned to the 774 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:15,460 30th of January the next news item again 775 00:34:21,540 --> 00:34:17,290 comes from the age this time published 776 00:34:24,930 --> 00:34:21,550 on the 31st of January 1985 no deception 777 00:34:27,540 --> 00:34:24,940 in psychic surgery ASM by Patric 778 00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:27,550 Smithers charges of obtaining money by 779 00:34:33,060 --> 00:34:30,250 deception by pretending to perform 780 00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:33,070 psychic surgery were dismissed in a box 781 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:35,740 Hill magistrate's court yesterday mr. 782 00:34:41,490 --> 00:34:38,770 Lionel Wilton Smith SM said he was 783 00:34:43,410 --> 00:34:41,500 satisfied that what was known as psychic 784 00:34:44,730 --> 00:34:43,420 surgery had been performed on two 785 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:44,740 members of the Australian skeptic 786 00:34:48,030 --> 00:34:47,050 Society but not that there was a 787 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:48,040 deception 788 00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:51,130 Margaret Kingsland 48 of Paula Crescent 789 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:55,150 East Doncaster and Lawrence King 44 were 790 00:35:00,570 --> 00:34:57,130 charged with obtaining $30.00 by 791 00:35:02,730 --> 00:35:00,580 deception Colin James Kingsland 49 of 792 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:02,740 Pollock resin Easton castor was charged 793 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:04,570 with aiding and abetting in the alleged 794 00:35:12,030 --> 00:35:07,930 deception counsel for mr. King and mrs. 795 00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:12,040 Kingsland mr. Raymond Lopez said the 796 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:14,230 society members had not been deceived 797 00:35:19,530 --> 00:35:16,930 because they had expected to receive 798 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:19,540 psychic surgery the two people got what 799 00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:22,450 they asked for he said Mr Lopez said it 800 00:35:26,220 --> 00:35:24,160 was not a question of where the psychic 801 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:26,230 surgery worked or could be proved 802 00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:28,570 scientifically he said faith healing was 803 00:35:34,050 --> 00:35:31,180 practiced in the Uniting Anglican and 804 00:35:36,430 --> 00:35:34,060 Roman Catholic churches but was not seen 805 00:35:38,829 --> 00:35:36,440 as deception 806 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:38,839 and the final newspaper clipping I 807 00:35:44,260 --> 00:35:43,010 discovered again comes from 1985 this 808 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:44,270 time in The Sydney Morning Herald 809 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:47,530 published on the 1st of February and 810 00:35:54,940 --> 00:35:51,650 this is in the stay in touch segment of 811 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:54,950 the newspaper legal precedents to 812 00:35:59,140 --> 00:35:56,690 members of the Australian skeptic 813 00:36:02,740 --> 00:35:59,150 society who set out to prove that a 814 00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:02,750 Filipino psychic surgeon was a fraud got 815 00:36:06,849 --> 00:36:04,640 a shock this week when a Melbourne 816 00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:06,859 magistrate dismissed charges of 817 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:09,470 obtaining money by deception against the 818 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:11,930 healer in Box Hill Court 819 00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:15,049 Lawrence catching 44 of East Doncaster 820 00:36:21,099 --> 00:36:18,079 had been charged with obtaining $30 by 821 00:36:24,339 --> 00:36:21,109 deception Raman Lopes representing mr. 822 00:36:26,589 --> 00:36:24,349 kucheng said the skeptic Society members 823 00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:26,599 had not been deceived because they had 824 00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:28,910 expected to receive psychic surgery 825 00:36:34,420 --> 00:36:32,990 quote which by definition involves a 826 00:36:36,849 --> 00:36:34,430 fraud end quote 827 00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:36,859 quote the two people got what they asked 828 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:39,200 for in quote mr. Lopez said the 829 00:36:45,099 --> 00:36:43,130 magistrate Lionel Wilton Smith said he 830 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:45,109 was satisfied that what was known as 831 00:36:50,769 --> 00:36:47,690 psychic surgery had been performed on 832 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:50,779 the two skeptics but not that there had 833 00:37:00,670 --> 00:36:57,650 been a deception and you can read the 834 00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:00,680 original article in the skeptic magazine 835 00:37:07,779 --> 00:37:05,240 vol 5 number 1 from 1985 together with 836 00:37:10,299 --> 00:37:07,789 other items and articles on psychic 837 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:10,309 surgery and it's all available to you 838 00:37:19,809 --> 00:37:15,049 for free if you visit WWF dicks calm day 839 00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:19,819 you and I guess it's a lesson for us all 840 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:21,349 even when you think that you've got 841 00:37:26,529 --> 00:37:24,010 somebody as they say bang to rights a 842 00:37:29,279 --> 00:37:26,539 classic case of fraud which psychic 843 00:37:31,569 --> 00:37:29,289 surgery is there's no two ways about it 844 00:37:33,850 --> 00:37:31,579 in fact it's one of the things that I 845 00:37:36,850 --> 00:37:33,860 often comment on 846 00:37:39,010 --> 00:37:36,860 when we say well is this a fraud or is 847 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:39,020 this a fake or what's going on some 848 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:41,210 people can be innocently deceived in 849 00:37:44,350 --> 00:37:42,770 thinking they have magical psychic 850 00:37:48,930 --> 00:37:44,360 powers in fact I think a lot of people 851 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:48,940 like that but I always bring up two 852 00:37:54,850 --> 00:37:51,890 paranormal feats one being spoon bending 853 00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:54,860 you can't accidentally fool yourself 854 00:37:58,990 --> 00:37:56,660 that you can bend spoons you have to 855 00:38:01,930 --> 00:37:59,000 learn the trick and the other is psychic 856 00:38:03,580 --> 00:38:01,940 surgery you can't innocently deceive 857 00:38:06,010 --> 00:38:03,590 yourself into thinking that you are 858 00:38:08,490 --> 00:38:06,020 performing psychic surgery it's a 859 00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:08,500 sleight-of-hand trick you have to learn 860 00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:10,580 although it is worth noting there is 861 00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:12,440 another group of psychics out there who 862 00:38:18,730 --> 00:38:16,250 call themselves psychic surgeons but say 863 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:18,740 they do it completely by psychic means 864 00:38:22,510 --> 00:38:20,210 in other words I'll sit in the chair and 865 00:38:24,430 --> 00:38:22,520 hum and concentrate or wave their hands 866 00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:24,440 over somebody and say they are at that 867 00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:27,080 moment performing surgery inside 868 00:38:36,970 --> 00:38:34,670 somebody's body and to this day classic 869 00:38:38,830 --> 00:38:36,980 psychic surgery is certainly still being 870 00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:38,840 performed in the Philippines and Brazil 871 00:38:54,060 --> 00:38:42,760 but also right here in Australia 872 00:38:57,010 --> 00:38:54,070 [Music] 873 00:38:59,980 --> 00:38:57,020 crop circles are so intricate and 874 00:39:02,140 --> 00:38:59,990 complex it is not possible for humans to 875 00:39:04,510 --> 00:39:02,150 make them you're not really getting the 876 00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:04,520 complete holistic birth experience 877 00:39:09,220 --> 00:39:07,340 unless you eat your placenta I mean 878 00:39:11,770 --> 00:39:09,230 animals do it and mother nature always 879 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:11,780 knows best of course the world is 880 00:39:16,450 --> 00:39:13,850 haunted by ghosts and demons that 881 00:39:18,790 --> 00:39:16,460 explains so much so easily that I barely 882 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:18,800 have to do any thinking I've watched a 883 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:20,510 whole lot of Flat Earth videos on 884 00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:22,910 YouTube you know they convinced me it's 885 00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:25,040 all a conspiracy there's no way we live 886 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:28,160 on a spinning ball we all have friends 887 00:39:33,370 --> 00:39:30,290 and family who believe these things and 888 00:39:35,950 --> 00:39:33,380 much more well if you're a rational 889 00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:35,960 thinker who's tired of arguing on social 890 00:39:39,340 --> 00:39:38,240 media and never getting anywhere we have 891 00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:39,350 a solution for you 892 00:39:43,690 --> 00:39:41,510 join the guerrilla skepticism on 893 00:39:46,420 --> 00:39:43,700 wikipedia team and we will teach you how 894 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:46,430 to add reliable scientific and skeptical 895 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:48,170 information to the world's number-one 896 00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:51,650 source of information Wikipedia we write 897 00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:53,830 you articles and improve existing ones 898 00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:56,720 we removed pseudoscience paranormal and 899 00:40:01,140 --> 00:39:58,880 altmed claims substituting the actual 900 00:40:04,060 --> 00:40:01,150 facts and we operate in many languages 901 00:40:06,460 --> 00:40:04,070 we've already reached tens of millions 902 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:06,470 of people searching for information but 903 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:08,450 as you can imagine we can never do 904 00:40:14,650 --> 00:40:11,810 enough so please join us all you need is 905 00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:14,660 a PC and the desire to help educate the 906 00:40:18,660 --> 00:40:17,420 planet in fact you'll be educating the 907 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:18,670 world while you sleep 908 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:24,010 contact us at GS o W team @ gmail.com 909 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:27,410 guerrilla skepticism the time is now 910 00:40:44,580 --> 00:40:42,870 thank you for listening to the skeptic 911 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:44,590 zone now don't forget there's all sorts 912 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:47,770 of sceptical events coming up for the 913 00:40:54,270 --> 00:40:50,170 rest of the year we've gots kept the cow 914 00:40:58,500 --> 00:40:54,280 con in San Francisco early next month 915 00:41:01,260 --> 00:40:58,510 there's the psyche on which I will play 916 00:41:04,410 --> 00:41:01,270 periodic promotions for for the next few 917 00:41:06,359 --> 00:41:04,420 months in Las Vegas PD I won't be going 918 00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:06,369 to either of those unfortunately just 919 00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:10,000 the way things work out timewise we have 920 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:12,250 Dragon Con in Atlanta Georgia and I'm 921 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:14,170 scheduled to appear there on The 922 00:41:20,540 --> 00:41:15,910 Skeptical track with my old friends 923 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:20,550 Derek Colin dunno and dr. Angie Matt key 924 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:23,410 just need to sort out my accommodation 925 00:41:29,460 --> 00:41:27,610 hmm and in fact you may recall or 926 00:41:31,380 --> 00:41:29,470 certainly longtime listeners may recall 927 00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:31,390 the very first episode of the skeptics 928 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:34,240 owned was recorded in Atlanta Georgia at 929 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:38,410 at Dragon Con in 2008 and of course we 930 00:41:44,070 --> 00:41:40,930 have the Australian skeptics National 931 00:41:47,550 --> 00:41:44,080 Convention skeptic on and you can find 932 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:47,560 out more about that at skeptic on.org au 933 00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:49,810 and that's in Melbourne from the 6th to 934 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:53,020 the 8th of December special guests the 935 00:41:57,570 --> 00:41:55,210 skeptics guide to the universe all of 936 00:42:00,210 --> 00:41:57,580 them susan gerbic from guerrilla 937 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:00,220 skepticism and many more to be announced 938 00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:03,010 and with your help your generous help 939 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:06,580 over the years I should be able to get 940 00:42:11,220 --> 00:42:08,650 our reporter Maynard down there to run 941 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:11,230 around with his microphone and grab the 942 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:14,710 odd 60 or 70 interviews like he normally 943 00:42:18,510 --> 00:42:15,130 does 944 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:18,520 and speaking of Maynard check out his 945 00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:21,850 podcasts and other shows at Maynard comm 946 00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:24,310 today you I noticed he's got a few more 947 00:42:29,609 --> 00:42:27,040 events coming up here in Sydney in glebe 948 00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:29,619 in the red bar lots of fun but for this 949 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:31,750 week this is Richard Saunders signing 950 00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:39,980 you've been listening to the skeptic 951 00:42:48,650 --> 00:42:43,670 zone podcast please visit our website at 952 00:42:51,350 --> 00:42:48,660 WWDC be for show notes contacts and to 953 00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:51,360 access the bat catalog of episodes going 954 00:42:57,910 --> 00:42:55,110 back to 2008 you can follow the skeptic 955 00:43:00,650 --> 00:42:57,920 zone podcast on twitter at skeptic zone 956 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:00,660 visit our facebook page or leave a 957 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:02,210 review on itunes 958 00:43:08,270 --> 00:43:04,890 you can also support the skeptic zone 959 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:08,280 via patreon or PayPal the skeptic zone 960 00:43:13,370 --> 00:43:10,970 podcast is an independent production 961 00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:13,380 reviews and opinions expressed on the 962 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:15,510 skeptic zone are not necessarily those 963 00:43:19,710 --> 00:43:17,850 of Australian skeptics or any other 964 00:43:30,740 --> 00:43:19,720 skeptical organization 965 00:43:34,710 --> 00:43:33,030 hello to people who listen after the 966 00:43:36,810 --> 00:43:34,720 music yes it's the dice game once again 967 00:43:38,730 --> 00:43:36,820 I've got a ten sided die here 968 00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:38,740 I don't where's it gone I've got a 969 00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:40,990 20-sided die huh 970 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:45,520 I must look at wait a minute this is my 971 00:43:50,580 --> 00:43:47,770 box of die here dice diced I always get 972 00:43:55,020 --> 00:43:50,590 those confused here we go there's a 10 973 00:43:57,750 --> 00:43:55,030 sided one what's this a six-sided 20 974 00:43:58,170 --> 00:43:57,760 I've got 60 sided one in there good 975 00:43:59,580 --> 00:43:58,180 grief 976 00:44:01,740 --> 00:43:59,590 anyway we'll go yeah we'll do 977 00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:01,750 traditional and go with a 10 sided die 978 00:44:07,110 --> 00:44:04,960 I'm gonna roll this die 10 times no 979 00:44:09,330 --> 00:44:07,120 that's wrong I'm gonna run maybe if I 980 00:44:11,340 --> 00:44:09,340 had a three sided die I could roll it 10 981 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:11,350 times I do have a three sided die 982 00:44:19,650 --> 00:44:16,810 where's that is that it no now let me 983 00:44:21,060 --> 00:44:19,660 roll a ten sided die three times and 984 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:21,070 this is where you get to use your 985 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:24,490 predicting power your psychic magical 986 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:26,890 powers to see if you can foresee the 987 00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:29,050 future and predict what numbers gonna 988 00:44:35,130 --> 00:44:31,510 come up I'm gonna put it in this little 989 00:44:37,260 --> 00:44:35,140 tub do it differently today 990 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:37,270 all right so predict away the first 991 00:44:41,780 --> 00:44:39,970 number it will be one two three four 992 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:41,790 five six seven eight nine or ten 993 00:44:48,030 --> 00:44:44,610 predicting here we go 994 00:44:50,370 --> 00:44:48,040 and it's rest come to rest on number 995 00:44:54,570 --> 00:44:50,380 three I always have to write these down 996 00:45:01,920 --> 00:44:54,580 because I okay number three second one 997 00:45:06,060 --> 00:45:01,930 coming up here we go one three and one 998 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:06,070 okay and the last number predicting here 999 00:45:17,250 --> 00:45:15,610 we go five so this week's lucky numbers